Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:02 AM - Encoder Certification ()
2. 07:01 AM - Encoder Certification ()
3. 11:47 AM - ONGOING DISCUSSION ()
4. 08:05 PM - Re: Encoder Certification (wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Encoder Certification |
1/20/2010
Hello Steve Thomas, You write: "I am the manufacturer of the airplane."
{Response} Nice try, but no cigar.
In the eyes of the FAA you are not the manufacturer of a type certificated
airplane (which title carrys many significant qualifications, approvals, and
inspections), but instead the "fabicator and assembler" of an experimental
amateur built airplane.
The regulatory permission and description that allows our category of
aircraft to exist does not use the word "manufactured". See here:
" 14 CFR 21.191 Experimental certificates. Experimental certificates are
issued for the following purposes:
(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major
portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook
the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
=========================================================
Time: 06:49:15 AM PST US
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
From: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
OC,
As I read the regs. you quote below, it sounds like I am qualified to
perform the
tests.
> "(b) The tests required by paragraph (a) of this section must be conducted
> by-
>
> (1) The manufacturer of the airplane, or helicopter, on which the tests
> and inspections
are to be performed;
I am the manufacturer of the airplane.
Steve Thomas
Message 2
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| Subject: | Encoder Certification |
1/20/2010
Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more with
your help?
You write:
1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are huge
expanses of this country where this is true."
{Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam the
wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the uncontrolled
airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low
altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance.
There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now. Can you
please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area and
confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt them.
Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace and
therefore is controlled.
2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks
living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."
{Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet of the
surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b) (5)
(i). See here:
"(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person
may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an
operable coded radar beacon transponder.......
(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia
at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet
above the surface; and....."
3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without
it turned on."
{Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with no
transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL if
within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled, as
long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.
Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you have
in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?
Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or not
is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather the
specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled airspace"
is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14 CFR
paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
transponder or not.
Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a set of
low altitude IFR charts for the entire country.
'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
understand knowledge."
PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes there
is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard
pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled airspace)
unless a special navigation effort was made.
==================================================
Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US
From: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
Bakerocb,
Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If
I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments. No
doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment
(controlled airspace).
If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks
living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c), does
not
apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled.
So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without
it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is true.
If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing.
Jon
Message 3
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| Subject: | ONGOING DISCUSSION |
1/19/2010
Hello Jim, Good to hear from you.
You ask: "Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance
with the 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates
under "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace?"
>"14 CFR 91.411 (a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in
>controlled airspace under IFR unless-
>
> (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure
> system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude
> reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with
> appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;"
{Response} Just avoiding all "IFR operations in controlled airspace" is not
sufficient
to relieve one of the 14 CFR required periodic transponder checks. Let's see
if we can figure out why.
1) First, while operating in what airspace must one's aircraft be
"........equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder......"?
Paragraph 91.215 (b) answers that question:
"91.215 (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs
(b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with
an operable coded radar beacon transponder .........."
So if one avoids flying in any of the transponder required airspace as
described in (b) (1) through (b) (5) then one does not need a transponder.
But if one flys, even under VFR, in any of that described airspace then they
must have an operable transponder installed. Note that the airspace below
10,000 feet MSL and within 2,500 feet of the surface is not transponder
required airspace. See 91.215 (b) (5) (i).**
2) What kind of transponder must we part 91 pilots have to fly in that
transponder required airspace? 91.215 (a) answers that question:
"91.215 (a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment
installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any
class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude
reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112
(Mode S)."
3) Does that 91.215 (a) required installed transponder have to have any kind
of a periodic test? 91.413 answers that question:
"91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.
(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a),
121.345(c), or 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24
calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found
to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and..............."
4) When are we required to operate the 91.215 (a) required transponder that
has been tested as required by 91.413? Paragraph 91.215 (c) answers that
question:
"91.215 (c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in
paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person
operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained
in accordance with 91.413 of this part shall operate the transponder,
including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate
code or as assigned by ATC."
5) Note that the term IFR has not even come up yet in the questions and
answers in 1, 2, 3, and 4 above. So what is the big deal about transponders
and IFR controlled airspace?
The big deal is the requirement in 91.411 of complying with Appendix E as
well as Appendix F of Part 43 for a transponder used in IFR operations in
controlled airspace. See here:
"91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and
inspections.
(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace
under IFR unless-
(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system,
each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting
system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E
and F of part 43 of this chapter;"
6) So if we have an aircraft with an engine-driven electrical system how do
we get out from under the 91.411 or 91.413 every two year transponder
checks? We could:
A) Never fly (VFRor IFR) within the 91.215 (b) transponder required
airspace. Then you will not be be required to either have a transponder or
have it checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed,
but it has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it.
B) Fly only VFR within the 91.215 (b) permitted airspace -- below 10,000
feet MSL or within 2,500 feet above the surface. There you will not be be
required to either have a transponder or have it checked if you do have one.
If you do have a transponder installed, but it has not been checked you are
forbidden from operating it.
C) Fly IFR only in Class G uncontrolled airspace, if you can find some.
There you will not be required to either have a transponder or have it
checked if you do have one. If you do have a transponder installed, but it
has not been checked you are forbidden from operating it. You don't even
have to be in contact with ATC.
I think that item C above is largely theoretical in nature. Supposedly the
low altitude IFR charts show the uncontrolled Class G airspace below 14,500
MSL in brown. It has been quite awhile since I've flown out west where there
was still some brown showing, but there wasn't much left. All airspace above
14,500MSL is Class E air space and therefore considered controlled.
So you can see that it is possible to avoid the 14 CFR required periodic
transponder checks, but not very practical unless maybe you are an ag pilot
operating locally.
Comments or questions?
OC
**PS: See 91.215 (b) (2). I note that KHWY is within 30 miles of KIAD which
is listed in Appendix D, Section 1 to Part 91. Therefore airplanes operating
out of KHWY are required to have operable transponders.
===================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: ONGOING DISCUSSION
> Hello, OC,
>
> Enjoyed meeting you and looking at your Experimental some months back when
> I was at HEF for Craig Laporte's first flight of his Tailwind.
>
> I've been following the "Forum" discussions on Transponder required-checks
> and have learned a lot from your well informed inputs. The following
> portion of your current message caused me to wonder if I have been missing
> something of significance in this arena.
>
> Does the following item (a) possibly relieve one from compliance with the
> 24 calendar month criteria if the aircraft involved never operates under
> "IFR conditions" in controlled airspace?
>
>
> "(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled
> airspace under IFR unless-
>
> (1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure
> system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude
> reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with
> appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;"
>
> Jim McCulley
> TAILWIND at HWY
> ====================================================================================
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Encoder Certification |
Folks,
Using the term "controlled airspace" is a bit of a misnomer.
Airspace is categorized as A, B, C, D, E, F and G.
Only F and G are "uncontrolled", there is no F in the US, and very little G, outside
Alaska.
For those with a long memory, what is now E, in the US was once called "Controlled/VFR
Exempt".
In regular day to day flying, it is very hard to dodge E airspace in US, as it
is most common airspace below below A.
Generally, B,C and D are terminal/tower airspace.
Below 10,000', for Part 91 operations, the requirement for a transponder relates
to the transponder veil withing 30 miles of the airfields on which Class B is
centered, or as otherwise noted/charted.
In my opinion, as an individual, you can only satisfy the requirements for a Mode
C encoder by having a TSO unit, with the necessary initial/recurrent testing.
How?? do you establish the 95% probability performance otherwise required in Part
91, already mentioned, a simple test of an installation does not do that, it
does not establish the in-service performance is maintained.
Regards,
Bill Hamilton
> bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
>
>
> 1/20/2010
>
> Hello Again Jon Finley, Can we please beat on this subject a bit more
> with
> your help?
>
> You write:
>
> 1) "..... almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled." and "There are
> huge
> expanses of this country where this is true."
>
> {Response} I wonder if this is so. Years ago when I would freely roam
> the
> wild west in my many different flying machines I would eye the
> uncontrolled
> airspace (delineated by brown shading as opposed to white on the low
> altitude IFR charts) and wonder about its significance.
>
> There was damn little brown shading then and probably much less now. Can
> you
> please obtain a copy of a recent low altitude IFR chart for your area
> and
> confirm that the statements you made above are true? I tend to doubt
> them.
> Note that all airspace in our country above 14,500 is Class E airspace
> and
> therefore is controlled.
>
> 2) "If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that
> folks
> living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
> hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
> airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5)."
>
> {Response} If you get above 10,000 feet MSL and not within 2,500 feet of
> the
> surface you will definitely be in the airspace identified by 91.215 (b)
> (5)
> (i). See here:
>
> "(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
> person
> may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1)
> through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an
>
> operable coded radar beacon transponder.......
>
> (i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
> Columbia
> at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500
> feet
> above the surface; and....."
>
> 3) "So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or
> without
> it turned on."
>
> {Response} Note that 91.215 (b) (5) (i) in effect permits aircraft with
> no
> transponders to operate below 10,000 feet MSL and above 10,000 feet MSL
> if
> within 2,500 feet of the surface, even if that airspace is controlled,
> as
> long as the rest of 91.215 (b) is complied with.
>
> Could it be that this vast amount of airspace is the airspace that you
> have
> in mind to operate in and not uncontrolled airspace per se?
>
> Anyway the real issue here when it comes to requiring a transponder or
> not
> is not the existence or not of generic controlled airspace, but rather
> the
> specific airspaces identified in 91.215 (b). The term "controlled
> airspace"
> is not used once in the entire 91.215 (b) parargraph and this is the 14
> CFR
> paragaph that regulates whether an aircraft must be equipped with a
> transponder or not.
>
> Hoping to read about what you find out -- sure wish I had access to a
> set of
> low altitude IFR charts for the entire country.
>
> 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and
> understand knowledge."
>
> PS: I just went on line and checked in the vicinity of Socorro NM. Yes
> there
> is some brown (uncontrolled airspace) out there, but one would be hard
> pressed to fly around and avoid all surrounding white (controlled
> airspace)
> unless a special navigation effort was made.
>
> ==================================================
>
> Time: 07:10:22 PM PST US
> From: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Encoder Certification
>
> Bakerocb,
>
> Everything noted so far in this thread assumes controlled airspace. If
> I missed where that was stated in this thread then ignore my comments.
> No
> doubt that what has been said is applicable given the right environment
> (controlled airspace).
>
> If you read the full text of 14 CFR 91.215 (b), you will find that folks
> living in a place like me (middle of nowhere in New Mexico) can fly for
> hours and hours in most any direction and NOT come upon ANY of the
> airspace listed in (b)(1) through (b)(5). Additionally, 91.215 (c),
> does
> not
> apply as almost all of our airspace is uncontrolled.
>
> So, given MY environment, I can fly without a transponder and/or without
> it turned on. There are huge expanses of this country where this is
> true.
>
> If someone can prove the above wrong, I would be interested in hearing.
>
> Jon
>
>
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